Happy Pick a Pathologist Pal Day, Tor.com! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
(No, apparently I am not kidding. December 13th is also, apparently, National Cocoa Day and National Violin Day! Which is NOT INSANE AT ALL WHAT)
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapter 47 of The Shadow Rising, originally reread in this post, and Chapter 49, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, a reminder that the format of the Reread Redux has changed: from now on I am only going to be commenting on chapters in which my reaction has changed significantly from before, based on the knowledge I had at the time.
Also, even more scheduling fun! But this is perhaps to be expected, because as you know, Bob, the year 2016 is soon coming to a close (and good riddance, too). Thus, the Reread will be going on a wee hiatus until all the holiday madness is over.
Ergo, this will be the last post of the year, and the Reread will resume on Tuesday, January 10th.
Got all that? Good! Onward!
Chapter 47: The Truth of a Viewing
Redux Commentary
[What happens: The Tower coup, that’s what. Siuan is deposed by Frickin’ Elaida, assisted by Frickin’ Gawyn. Siuan and Leane are stilled and tortured, lots of Warders die, and everything is awful. Min breaks Siuan and Leane out, with reluctant sort-of-help from Frickin’ Gawyn, and they escape the Tower. I *headdesk* a lot.]
I said in the original commentary that this is the chapter that kicks TSR into high gear, but on reflection this chapter is really much more pivotal than that; this is a crucial turning point for the entire series. I say that because the Tower coup marks the moment in WOT where the Light is dealt its first truly devastating blow; in which its most powerful and seemingly most immutable bastion of defense, the White Tower, is suborned and virtually crippled within a single day. That’s some scary shit, y’all.
It’s when we first get a sense of just how bad things could get for Our Heroes, of how unsteady are the foundations upon which they must stand against the Shadow. In other words, this chapter is when shit starts Goin’ Down For Real.
That’s something to remember whenever impulses to sneer at Mesaana for being one of the less scary Forsaken may arise. Because by my lights, she orchestrated the first decisive Shadow victory of the war, even if by proxy, so there. She schooled y’all good, hahaha. ‘Cause she was a teacher. Geddit?
(Okay, yes, I’m sorry, I will go sit in the Bad Pun Corner now. *hangs head, slinks off*)
But once I’m back, I will say the Tower coup also spoke to Jordan’s willingness to take things to that G.D.F.R. level that previously had perhaps still been in some doubt. Granted, Jordan and Sanderson’s combined efforts, even in the AMOL Last Battle portion of things, never got quite down to the level of Shit Realness of, say, George RR Martin’s shit. But I can’t exactly complain about that, since just about no one can match GRRM’s extremity of shit realness. His shit got so real that I think we all began to wistfully wish for some slightly faker shit to go down every once in a while, because jeez, George.
(I will now also go sit in the Deeply Mangled English Corner for a while. *hangs head, slinks off*)
ANYWAY, speaking of Mesaana, hey, how about that decade-long fight we all had about who she was disguised as in the Tower, and how kinda silly that seems in retrospect? Of course, it seems obvious only in retrospect that Danelle had to be Mesaana’s alter ego—and that’s for very “Robert Jordan” values of “obvious”.
(For the whippersnappers that might not get that joke: the fandom also had a decade-plus long fight over who murdered Asmodean in TFOH, which was way more acrimonious than the Mesaana debate ever got, and one of the biggest bones of contention was that Jordan had stated at one point or another that the answer was “obvious”. Because Jordan was a devious little scamp sometimes, bless him.)
Point being, this chapter was Srs Bsns, and I think even with all the crazy shit that went down in the latter third of the series, the shit Elaida pulls here still stands out. Frickin’ Elaida. Feh.
Chapter 49: Cold Rocks Hold
Redux Commentary
[What we missed: Rand is starting to fall for Aviendha despite her epic grumpiness; the gleeman Natael is morbidly curious about Rand’s fate; Mat is a dumbhead re: Isendre and Keille; eventually they all arrive at Cold Rocks Hold. In this chapter, we have Aiel Culture Crash Course 202 when we meet Rhuarc’s other wife Lian, who insults Couladin and welcomes Rand. Rand is perturbed at the wait he must endure for the clans to come together, and more perturbed at Moiraine being Moiraine.]
Amys and Lian had climbed down, and to Rand’s surprise, Rhuarc put an arm around each of them. They were both tall, as most Aiel women seemed to be, but neither came higher than the clan chief’s shoulder. “You have met my wife Amys,” he said to Rand. “Now you must meet my wife Lian.”
Rand realized his mouth was hanging open and closed it quickly. After Aviendha had told him the roofmistress of Cold Rocks was Rhuarc’s wife and named Lian, he was sure he had misunderstood back at Chaendaer, all that “shade of my heart” between the man and Amys. He had had other things on his mind then anyway. But this…
“Both of them?” Mat spluttered. “Light! Two! Oh, burn me! He’s the luckiest man in the world or the biggest fool since creation!”
“I had thought,” Rhuarc said, frowning, “that Aviendha was teaching you our customs. She leaves out much, it appears.”
I speculated in the original commentary on whether sister-wives routinely have sex with each other or not, and I was sort of surprised at how many of the comments addressing the question seemed to favor the idea that they did not. It’s certainly possible that that is the typical arrangement, and it even seems likely that this is the interpretation of the situation that Jordan intended, but you’ll have to forgive me if I find that an awfully heteronormative assumption to make overall. Not to mention the unmistakable aura of male fantasy fulfillment it carries. I wouldn’t assert the latter if we’d ever heard of the reverse situation (i.e. a wife taking two husbands), but as far as I recall we did not, and so I rather have to raise an eyebrow at the whole thing.
But then again, we all project the reality we want to see on things, don’t we. For my part, I would highly prefer to believe that the polyamory the Aiel practice reflects a willingness to accommodate preferences across the spectrum, from heterosexuality to bisexuality to homosexuality to asexuality, and all permutations in between, because that would in my view be the only equitable way to do it. However, I am aware that for many people (Jordan most likely included) that’s a fairly advanced and by some lights radical view of human sexuality that may be difficult to justify applying to something written almost twenty-five years ago.
By the standards of the early 90s, just suggesting the notion of socially acceptable polyamory at all would have been pretty shocking, at least as far as I can recall. So maybe it’s a bit much to ask for the entire Kinsey scale while we’re at it.
(Of course, the Kinsey scale theory of human sexuality was first proposed in the 1950s, so…)
Anyway, my point is, just because the Aiel culture is open-minded enough to support polyamorous relationships doesn’t automatically mean they are open to every possible variation thereof, and I probably shouldn’t assume that they are just because I want them to be.
I really wish they were, though. It would make my free-wheeling progressive little heart very happy.
And that’s what I got for now, kids! I hope all of you have a happy and safe holiday season, in whichever way you do or do not choose to celebrate it, and I will see y’all back here in the bright shiny new year! January 10th, don’t be late! Mwah! Cheers!
So, somewhat philosophical question, but why do we have the tendency to view something like GRRM as more ‘real’, because it is darker or the worst that humanity has to offer? Then again I suppose if you are writing the war to end all wars, what GRRM describes is a bit more likely in that scenario…
Regarding Asmodean and Brandon Sanderson, there is a truly laugh out loud moment in one of his Alcatraz books that actually has to do with who may have killed Asmodean. I was on the bus reading it and kind of did a double take becuase I had to remember which series I was reading. Anyway, the other bus people probably thought I was crazy.
Interestingly, to me the idea that the wives also have sex with each other seems more like male wish fulfillment, maybe because the way our society tends to turn lesbianism into something kind of kinky. But I admit that my default (and still current) view of this particular polyamory is more that the man has chosen two wives who may get along very well with each other but are primarily in the relationship because of their feelings towards Rhuarc and that doesn’t necessarily imply that they’re interested in each other that way. (Two of my friends are in a poly relationship involving several people – they drew it all out of rme – and it’s not reciprocal; my friend has a wife/multiple girlfriends, and his wife (my other friend) also has some other partners but they aren’t necessarily HIS partners. Other people might do it different.)
Regarding Aiel polygamy, I always assumed the sister wives didn’t (usually) have sex with each other because in Muslim polygamy and Traditional Mormon polygamy they also don’t have sex with each other. Or at least sex with other wives isn’t sanctioned by their religion.
But who knows, maybe the Aiel do it the more open way. There’s not enough discussion about this with the Aiel we see, like Bain/Chiad/Gaul or how Aviendha thought the marriage with Rand should go with the other women.
Well, there is a strong implication in Gaul’s storyline that he might marry Bain AND Chiad, though he is only interested in Chiad (and she in him), because marrying a woman with a first sister sort of implies a package deal.
Since we know the same relationship (whether its platonic or not is almost immaterial) can exist between men, I’d assume there are polyamorous relationships with two men (or more) and a woman. And to your original point, it doesn’t seem like being married to two partners implies that you have a sexual relationship with both of them in any case. Taking the Gaul-Chiad-Bain example, the subtext seems to have been that he would have had sex with Chiad but not Bain, the latter of whom would only be formally part of the relationship for the sake of her relationship with Chiad. In fact, it brings up the interesting case of the intertwining of Chiad’s physical relationships…
First things first — everybody have a happy & healthy holiday season.
In my opinion, Mesaana was the 4th most effective Forsaken. She only trailed Demandred (bringing an entire nation with a huge number of channelers and an effective army to the Shadow’s side); M’Hael (creating new Dreadlords & weakening the Light Side at the same time); and Graendal (her use of Compulsion on the 4 Great Captains was brilliant). I do not think Moridin was as successful as the others. Sammael’s plan to scatter the Shaido and do damage throughout Randland did not turn out to cause as much chaos as he thought it would. Sevannna taking all of the Shaido women limited the possible damage. In some ways, as hard as it is to believe, Asmodean was one of the more effective Forsaken.
I am glad that we saw the after effects of the Tower coup from the point of view of a character not associated with the Tower. I think it was more effective that way.
I wonder if RJ did not include the line that Danelle smirked at Siuan whether many readers would have championed her as Mesaana’s alter ego. The Brown characteristic of being aloof (by that I mean being easily lost in your own thoughts) led me to look for a Brown Sister. That seemingly throwaway mention of Danelle and her subsequent lack of use in the story always stood out to me.
Thanks for my musings.
AndrewHB
the gaul-chiad-bain thing led me to believe that there was at least some indignant sex going on between at least two partners. like, gaul wouldn’t be allowed to embrace Bain’s saidar without letting Chiad hold his san’greal.
That sounded less cringey in my head. I’ll go now.
With regards to the sister-wives sleeping with each other – that is probably something decided between the members of the marriage. Some might, some might not.
As for the Tower coup – that is one of the most frustrating things in the whole series. What did Elaida accuse Siuan of? When it happened it seemed that Elaid managed to talk some members into it, and Alviarin got any Black Sitters to vote for it. OK, fine. But, then we meet some of these Sitters later and are supposed to believe they are rational intelligent people and not suck ups. Which begs the question, what was the accusation and proof she presented to make these people vote for deposing Siuan and raising Elaida? Cause that must have been a doozy.
@6 I got the sense that the only Sitters that made it “in time” for the vote (as we learn later it was the bare minimum required) were either Black or had some sort of grudge against Siuan already. Throwing the accusation that Siuan had been willingly aiding and abetting a man who could channel was likely damning enough, in those circumstances. That’s actually the big reason for the split, IMO – some of the Salidar Aes Sedai didn’t like Siuan and even disagreed with what she did, but they knew it wasn’t Justice that was done.
Siuan being deposed doesn’t strike me as odd, given that. Elaida being raised, after, is sort of odd (since one assumes more Sitters were present for that), but she hadn’t yet displayed her complete lack of leadership ability to the Tower, yet.
With regard to the one female and multi-male relationships, we have Myrelle and her warders.
About the bedroom habits of the Aiel, I think we must be careful to separate our real world preconceptions here- our patriarchal morals or lesbian sex titillation do not exist for the Aiel.
IMO, all possible permutations are present for them, except one. E.g. (M + 1W)x 2, (M + 2W) x1, (M + 1W) x1 + (1W + 1W) x1, (M + 1W) x1 + (1W + aM)… etc. The one almost always absent would be when no one in the marriage has any sexual relations (from the very beginning ;) )
The most common in my view would be the most ordinary/standard type. But to what extent I don’t know or particularly care. It would depend on the motivations of the participants in the marriage.
In connection with this- in the case of Gaul, Bain, and Chiad for e.g., what would the woman not interested in the man do? Would it be like a forced marriage, she having to sacrifice her feelings and body for the marriage? Or would it be socially acceptable in such cases that the woman finds her entertainment elsewhere. Can’t imagine one first sister forcing another (and probably their husband) into such an unpleasant situation- for the rest of their life having sex with someone they don’t want to or not having sex at all ever again. The Aiel don’t seem like such people.
Well, heck, the fact that the term is heteronormative may have something to do with why the comments went the way they did. And I thought Jordan addressed the male fantasy aspect quite well with Mat’s comment. The sex part is a male fantasy. The rest of it? Not so much. Many ancient cultures that practiced polygamy did so exactly like the Aiel, and likely for the same reasons; far more men died before marriage than women, because of the roles each sex played in that society, and because in every culture, boys are far more likely to do something stupid and get themselves killed than girls. Aiel culture exhibits fairly traditional roles for the sexes, the Maidens not withstanding. We even get to see how that particular departure to Aiel customs originated, thanks to the way way back machine.
You’re wrong about this. Myrelle Berengari was married to Avar Hachami, Croi Maken, and Nuhel Dromond. It’s only mentioned as a rumor that she’s married to them, but when we see her in tel’aran’rhiod she appears in traditional Ebou Dari dress with three marriage knives.
With their “agelessness” — which I’ve never been able to visualize — removed, Siuan and Leane looked “five or six years older” than Min. I don’t know what that implies about their actual ages.
@12:
We know their actual age is mid-forties, because they were in the Nyneave to Egwene age range during the Aiel war 20 years ago. They physically appear to be around mid-twenties in comparison to any normal human. In comparison to women of equal strength who never lived under the oaths, they’d look older than they really are. The Oaths eat away at your lifespan making you age about twice as fast, but the Oaths also make you ageless so you don’t notice (until you start getting grey hairs early, though early just means at the ripe age of 240, instead of 480 (where all Aes Sedai would be dead)). Given characters who take the Oaths mention feeling something tight and constraining falling over them when they take the oaths, its presumable the Oaths give almost ‘insta-facelifts’ so presumably if you’ve seen a woman with a really good facelift you’ve seen the Aes Sedai Agelessness.
Kinsey was a deeply troubled man who devolved from a studious researcher to a hack of a sexologist, using his own research subjects as a means to an end. A troubling legacy commeserate with that era, when scientists could do as they pleased with their subjects and research ethics didn’t apply to the educated social elite.
I think Jordan’s thought process is already on display based on Mat’s response to the revelation. Sexuality in WoT always did have a strong male fantasy vibe to it. From Rand’s harem to Mat’s philandering (only being contained by sexually dominate women), to the mixing of fighting with pleasure in Perrin’a relationship. And all of it working out in the end. That’s fantasy for you.
There was no mentioning of a red sitter not being present or voting against Elaida, right? So that means Pevara was here and voted to dispose and still Siuan and Leane… And that was only successful by one vote… I like Pevara, but this was not right. I don`t know what would have happened had she voted otherwise. There would have been a disturbance in the Tower, but not in the same way. Maybe Elaida would have been thrown out?
I’m still figuring out how that works with all the ages and timelines. But if the Oaths age a person faster, what makes Aes Sedai age slower than other people? Channeling? Apologies if this is discussed in detail somewhere; I don’t remember.
I’ve probably seen people with really good facelifts, but never recognized them as such because I’m too nearsighted to see a person’s features unless they’re at very close range. I tend to judge age by things like hair color, and have thus thought multiple women with dyed hair were decades younger than they turned out to be.
Explanation in the WoT Companion, entry Oath Rod:
9. ValMar
My understanding was that first-sisters are considered one unit as far as marriage goes. Gaul has to make up his mind – propose to both, and they’ll be sister-wives, or propose to neither. Back in the Stone, Mat keeps trying to flirt with one of them, but not the other, and this drives the Aiel to laughter. He doesn’t realize that it’s like asking a girl out, but expecting her to leave her left arm at home because he doesn’t get along with it.
10. Anthony Pero
I think you’re right in assuming that Jordan patterned Aiel polygamy after the customs of ancient cultures. Bedouin culture seems the most likely candidate, although Jordan deviated from it considerably.
That said, I’m not sure the reason for polygamy in antiquity was the more frequent deaths of younger men. Of course, it is true that more men than women died before marriage; but it is also true that more women died after marriage, in childbirth. You also see a pattern of polygamy in the upper classes of Arab societies, while there are hordes of lower-class men who cannot afford to pay the brideprice for a girl they want. And there are plenty of examples of ancient societies in which polygamy was not practiced, even though the death rates followed the same pattern as in eastern societies.
I would say that the attitude towards polygamy revolves primarily around the perceptual distance between women and property. Where women are considered a form of property – valuable property, even precious property, but property nonetheless – then polygamy follows as a matter of course. A secondary weight may be given to the importance of Clan and Honor. When the needs of the clan are paramount, and the clan needs strong sons more than anything else, then a man who produces more sons gains more honor. In this context, counting the number of his wives is just quibbling.
One would expect the institution of slavery to encourage polygamy, given the assumption that a master may freely bed his female slaves. But the Romans practiced slavery, without polygamy.
Perhaps the root of the matter is more fundamental. Is a man’s libido something to be deprecated in the public sphere? In this case, two wives is an admission of a gross character flaw. Or is it something to boast about, even in polite company? In this case, half my neighbors have two wives, they must be laughing at me behind my back, I’d better do something about it!
14. CireNaes
I’d never heard of Kinsey until I saw him mentioned in one of the finer articles by Theodore Dalrymple. This particular paragraph got stuck in my mind:
I wonder if you’ve read it? It’s quite worth reading, in my opinion – I’ve gone back to it more than once over the years.
Completely unrelated –
Has anyone else noticed that the origin of the name Moghedien might be Mujahideen? Someone pointed it out to me the other day, and I was taken aback at not having noticed the similarity over the last twenty or so years. Am I the only one who missed this?
@11:
I believe the OP was specifically limiting her commentary to Aiel polygamy in this passage.
There’s one very simple reason why sister-wives wouldn’t have sex with eachother. They are sisters. The prerequisite for sharing a husband is the adoptionceremony we saw Aviendha and Elayne experience. The One Power was used to simulate being born from the same mother.
Therefore, Sister Wives having a sexual relationshipw ould be incest. Case closed.
JL @@@@@ 18
Yeah, I get that but I wonder about situations as with Gaul, Bain and Chiad. When one of the wives is not interested in the man, what then? Is she expected to be as “involved” in the marriage as the other wife? The Aiel do not seem like this kind of society. I am not sure RJ gave it much thought, at least I hope he didn’t.
As for the rest of your thoughts on polygamy, very interesting. I find it very difficult not to be at the very least skeptical, at the most contemptuous about the various explanations/excuses for polygamy. Here on this thread, for musings about historical practices, skeptical ;-). Even in cases when there was some theoretically good reason to adopt polygamy, no doubt it was quickly corrupted.
20. Aqli
Yeah, good point.
21. ValMar
If one of the first-sisters isn’t interested, there simply won’t be a wedding. This is precisely Gaul’s problem. He wants Bain (or was it Chiad?), but he can’t have her without her first-sister, and he doesn’t want her first-sister, and he’s not willing to compromise. It’s a problem with no solution for him.
That’s how I see it, but to be honest I think my certainty is stronger than my sources. That said, if there were a simple solution – say, Gaul marries Bain, and Chiad is a fifth wheel, or Gaul marries them both, but it’s just pro forma with Chiad – then the whole Gaul-Bain-Chiad triangle just wouldn’t be interesting. The dilemma is interesting precisely because there is no solution. It’s like the story which one of the wise ones tells in Rhuidean, about the boy who almost had to take his mother-in-law as Gai’shain. Another one of Ji’e’toh’s paradoxes.
Aqli and JL @@@@@ 20 & 22
If it really is a prerequisite for the wives to be “sisters” in the true Aiel fashion (not just a formality) then this really simplifies things in one way, but also creates the dilemma Bain, Chiad, and Gaul find themselves facing.
But I don’t recall getting the feeling that this is the situation between Rhuarc’s wives. I’m afraid my certainty is as weak as my sources on this issue ;) . I couldn’t have envisioned pondering and writing about Aiel polygamy on a Christmas afternoon… That’s what the Wheel of Time does to you :D
Anyway, merry Christmas and all other holidays that folks celebrate at this time (like Hannukah this year)!
Sister-wives aren’t necessarily first-sisters beforehand. Melaine asked Amys and Bair to approach Dorindha on her behalf when she wanted to marry Bael. If she had been a first-sister to Dorindha (or even a near-sister) then she shouldn’t have had any problem speaking of it directly with Dorindha. They do become first-sisters as part of the ceremony but since they apparently only had a relatively distant relationship beforehand, I can’t see that the Aiel would consider it incest for adopted first-sisters to be sexually involved. Bain and Chaid imply that they have (or at least would be willing to be) involved in a threesome if a man approached them:
[Bain says …] “as proper for first-sisters who are Maidens, we guard each other’s backs, and neither will let a man come to her without the other. I would not say we do not care for men.” Chaid nodded, with just the hint of a smile. (DR:38)
I’m assuming that they’re talking about sex since the Aiel custom is for a woman to approach a man when it comes to marriage. It might not necessaily be a threesome; it could be sequential thing, I guess.
Either way, I don’t recall it saying anywhere that first-sisters had to be married as a unit; Avienda’s other first-sister (Niella) isn’t ever mentioned when it comes to marrying Rand. The issue with Gaul and Chiad is that Chiad isn’t willing to give up the spear for him. Since Chaid is willing to have sex with him, then Bain is interested in him at least as far as sex goes (if my reading from DR above is correct).
What I would have liked to see happen is, after all they’ve been through, they use the multi-first-sibling weave that Elayne came up with to all become first-siblings. I really wish they’d come up with a “5-years-later” book just to see what happened to everybody.
Holiday over, finally have time for this. Hoo boy… *tries not to poke with a stick, but may end up doing so anyway*
Okay first thing, the details of Siuan’s confrontation with Elaida. I always knew from this very scene that Something Was Up with Danelle–aside from her supposed “distraction” at hiring too many masons, who later prevent the Warders from freeing Siuan and thus lead to the actual fighting and death in the coup foreseen by Min, which was far too convenient, there’s that critical smirk, so unlike a Brown. While it’s possible Verin isn’t the only Brown who hides her true motives and cleverness behind dippiness, this still stuck out to me as very unusual. Add in what we learn later from Alviarin, and it seemed a gimme to me that she was Mesaana. (She could have just been Black, of course, but since Alviarin was head of the Ajah, there’d be no way she couldn’t know Danelle was a member.) The whole bit with the Great Dress Debate was just further confirmation to me. As a result, considering how this whole scene infuriated me at the time, and every time since then, I found myself extremely, fiercely pleased with Mesaana’s eventual fate. Similarly, even though many have spoken against such a conclusion, I can’t help enjoying what happens to Elaida herself. Guess I’m just vengeful.
On a related note, I should probably mention I never really forgave Joline for her part in this, although the fact she turned on Elaida eventually did mitigate that. Still, it wasn’t just her treatment of Mat that made me dislike her later on. Shemerin, however, I only had sympathy for.
Another side note: it’s never confirmed but I can only assume the missing sisters in Illian and Caemlyn are due to Sammael and Rahvin respectively. (Did Moiraine ever warn Siuan about Sammael? I can only assume not, but if so, why not? It doesn’t seem like Moiraine not to want to worry her, and even if Siuan could not tell anyone else and expect to be believed, surely that knowledge should have been factored into her plans going forward. And I guess we have to assume that because she didn’t believe Mat’s story, Elayne never told Moiraine what he said about her mother and Gaebril–not that this confirms him to be Rahvin.)
Alric: yeah I can only see that as a gaffe. I mean okay if he was only stabbed just before they exited the study, then it could have been masked (by her being shielded, if not the shock and rage), but shouldn’t she have sensed him being agitated, or being restrained? Then again if (as I believe Jordan mentioned later) she was shielded as soon as they entered the outer office, that could have kept her from feeling even that much. Still, it’s too convenient for Jordan. Might have been better if he could somehow have come up with a reason for Alric to be away from the Tower, or at least distant enough she couldn’t feel what happened to him. Ah well.
Gawyn: not much to say here that hasn’t been said. I was furious with him too, though I believe he acquitted himself well later in the last three books and, despite what he does at the Last Battle, I forgave him. But damn, him killing Hammar (at least that still haunts his conscience later)… I do think it is solely due to Siuan’s treatment of him and Galad regarding Elayne and Egwene that pushed him to this (perhaps bolstered by Morgase having turned on the Tower thanks to Rahvin), and as for trusting Elaida, despite what he would know about her from growing up at the palace, her presence there as a constant fixture would inspire a certain amount of trust regardless, I think. Assuming Morgase never warned him about her either… Anyway, I completely understand how he felt, the girls never treated him right (even if they had to know telling him the truth would result in him interfering and likely giving them away to the Shadow), and he really did want to help and do the right thing. But it’s him killing his teachers and the other Warders that really turned me against him for so long, that and how long he dithered and clung to Elaida, long after it should have been clear to him where his true loyalties lay.
Basically, the whole thing is a mess. (I believe Galad must have already left with Valda at this point…) At this point I had no idea what Logain’s role was going to be, but I was glad he was at least going to have one, and of course I loved Siuan’s intentions for Elaida. I can’t help wondering if part of the reason for the either/or on Min’s vision is not just that Gawyn’s future wasn’t yet set, but that no matter what he chose, both options were still possible. Since even becoming her Warder did eventually lead to Egwene’s death. But I suppose breaking her neck was more meant to suggest what would happen if he had left her to Elaida and the Seanchan (and later the Bloodknives) and that’s what the choice meant.
But…yeah. This chapter is still horrifying to me on so many levels. Poor Siuan and Leane (even knowing what we do now, that they get Healed later, the process of stilling itself has always been described as painful–it is after all cutting out or damaging a part of your mind. No wonder Min’s vision showed Leane screaming through her own face. *shivers*). I commend Jordan for going the whole nine yards once he decided what the story required (I am familiar myself with committing yourself to terrible events when writing, and have received similar responses from my readers), but that doesn’t change what a gut punch it is.
And Siuan’s line, about such a great institution of goodness and morality (at least theoretically, but a lot of the Aes Sedai really are still committed to the Light) being destroyed, and not by an enemy but by itself…and the fact it happened in such a divisive way, in a way no one could have imagined and that (as seen through Siuan) they kept thinking could “never happen here”, and due to corruption and outside infiltration…and willful ignorance thanks to the blindness of being focused only on one’s own power and agenda… Well, I don’t think I need to say more than that to note how once again Jordan was so prescient here, and how well this applies to the current political climate both here and abroad. (Then again perhaps the reason it resonates is because Jordan understood what it takes to bring down seemingly unassailable regimes of power and strength, and so what he outlined here would apply to any undermining of a great institution, nation, or organization. Then again, the breakdown of how the Hall voted, as debated at great lengths in the original comments, is…strikingly close to a particular modern election. Weird.)
Well, except this, to quote Leigh: “…in which its most powerful and seemingly most immutable bastion of defense…is suborned and virtually crippled within a single day. That’s some scary shit, y’all. It’s when we first get a sense of just how bad things could get…of how unsteady are the foundations upon which they must stand…” Yeah.
Aaaaanyway, back to the Aiel! I have to agree Rand’s reason for liking Aviendha is quite unique, but it makes sense in context. Though I have to laugh at him thinking “she knew what she thought of him” as we know very well (or will soon) that she is in fact quite conflicted in how she feels.
Natael: while the way he acts toward Rand, the questions he asks, and his speeches overall give away he is not your typical gleeman (granted we’ve only met one other in the series, but Thom has always come off as quintessential), I think it’s the fact he actually bothers to ask Rand how he feels about his destiny that always struck me (though that speech about not wanting to take his place is also extremely revelatory). Nobody else up to this point has ever really asked Rand how he felt, or shown much caring if he confronted them about it, at least not in so many words (the closest so far has been Elayne and Egwene, a bit). So I think even before what happens later, Jordan was priming us here to have some sympathy and liking for Asmodean.
As for why he is actually probing Rand like this, it’s possible that for all his lack of effectiveness as a Forsaken, he is still capable of and interested in multiple plots, so he has no issues with helping to recruit Rand (who can either protect him from the Dark One or earn him accolades from being the one to bring him to the Shadow) while also pursuing the ter’angreal on the side. Though I would totally buy (since Asmo has never been pure and true evil like so many other Forsaken, certain actions he took during the war notwithstanding) that he actually is genuinely interested in how Rand feels about his destiny, and wanting to chronicle it. If for no other purpose than it making for great songs he can compose to bolster his own reputation.
(Side note: as I posted on the original re-read, it’s interesting to guess where Asmodean got his knowledge of the Karaethon Cycle. He mentions in TFoH that he had run across a saying in Arad Doman, and that he knew Graendal was there. Aside from this convincing me that it was obvious she was Asmo’s killer (because he was the only Forsaken other than Sammael who knew where she was, and she’d been told he turned traitor), there is the fact that one of the biggest and most comprehensive libraries in Randland, the Terhana Library, is in Bandar Eban, the capital of Arad Doman. So even if you don’t buy that Asmo being in Arad Doman and knowing Graendal was there proves they’d been allied, I can easily imagine him doing research in the Terhana Library while he was there, and that’s how he found out about the Prophecies and a lot of other things which happened while he was sealed in the Bore.)
Lanfear’s little speech to Rand is rather masterful, since at the time it sounds like she’s talking about the Aviendha/Elayne mess, but really she meant “Lews Therin” belonging to herself. Well, at least she’s consistent in her obsession! And yeah Mat may be being a bit dumb here, but at least he’s still proving to be a principled rake.
Cold Rocks Hold: We never see Lian again after this, which is a shame, because I still love how she totally owned Couladin here. I also find the subtle foreshadowing Jordan uses here of what will happen at Alcair Dal very awesome: we have Couladin eyeing Rand with amusement, the knowledge from the previous chapter that Natael has started spending all his time with the Shaido, the way Couladin holds his arms when he runs off, and Moiraine’s flinch at Rhuarc’s comment that the dragons of Rhuidean cannot be imitated. One has to wonder, if she did have knowledge that contradicts this, how she came by it. I suppose she could have examined Rhuarc’s dragons back in the Stone and recognized that a ter’angreal could make them, but I think it’s more likely (as was theorized elsewhere) that she saw Couladin with them in the rings.
As for the polygamy/polygyny thing with the Aiel, I think I have to agree that most of the time it doesn’t involve the two wives having relations with each other beyond friendship (or sisterhood–anyway, something very strong but not sexual), but sometimes it can, and it really depends on the people involved. The nice thing I take away from it though is that while Jordan likely never intended or even thought of such a thing, and a large portion of the readership didn’t either (and still strongly resists the idea), the openness Jordan gave the Aiel culture means that retroactively it is still possible, because nothing he wrote contradicted it either. So basically, those of us who want to read it into it can, those who don’t won’t, and everybody is happy. If only it were that easy for all such differences of opinion.
Also of course I must chuckle at Rand being sure Elayne and Min could never agree on such a thing, or look/act like Lian and Amys, when we know with hindsight they absolutely will.
@1 Lisamarie: You have a point about the kinkiness. I’d say that actually makes it more likely the sister-wife sex is going on, based on so many men wanting that wish fulfillment, except that Jordan never struck me as that kind of man, fanservice female nakedness aside.
And yes, based on my own knowledge, polyamory can be very complicated in who is and isn’t involved with whom. Like with everything else, there are lots of variations and examples along the spectrum.
@@.-@ AndrewHB: Good point re: the coup through the eyes of a non-Tower person. Also, I agree about Mesaana. Although there is some irony too: if she hadn’t used Liandrin to get rid of the Supergirls (per Ishamael’s orders) and if she later hadn’t aided Be’lal in the trap in Tear via sending the coven there, the girls would never have become the mostly effective Black Ajah hunters they did, and Egwene specifically would likely never have become as strong as she was, let alone an Amyrlin or someone who could withstand mental oppression (i.e. the Seanchan). So she ended up shooting herself in the foot there.
@6 finder1: I assume you mean the Sitters who actually voted for it, since a number of the more rational intelligent ones we met later were the ones who didn’t vote for it. (It wasn’t the full Hall that held the vote, and of the ones who didn’t vote for it, not all fled the Tower.) And well, it seems that her proof was whatever information Alviarin got from Sahra regarding Min and the other girls, whom Elaida knew were connected with the boys, especially Rand. Just the fact there was collusion there at all, once Siuan revealed to the Hall who Rand was, would be worrisome to them. Also someone was intercepting Moiraine’s pigeons (again, I assume Alviarin or another high-ranking Black), and those messages would further prove collusion with Rand before he declared himself. When you add in Taim’s escape, and what Moiraine was doing in the first two books which the Hall disapproved of, and you can see how (if you squint right) it would look like some sort of dark conspiracy to people like the Aes Sedai who are predisposed to see that everywhere, especially in colleagues they didn’t like.
@7 KalvinKingsley: Alviarin and the Whites specifically put a lot of weight behind choosing Elaida as the next Amyrlin; I am guessing there may have been some blackmail or at least extreme pressure in the Hall. Also, the fact Elaida “uncovered” Siuan’s duplicity and revealed it to them would have lent some legitimacy to her as a candidate, out of gratitude if not the display of “leadership” and swift responsiveness in her actions.
@10 anthonypero: I think I missed something, even after all this time. Exactly how did we see the origin of the Aiel marriage customs in the Ancestatron? Or am I misunderstanding you, and you just meant the traditional roles of the sexes in general?
@11 neverspeakaword: Is that unequivocal proof though? Just because Myrelle sees them as her husbands via how her marriage knives appear in TAR doesn’t mean that’s the actual state of affairs in the real world; it could be wishful thinking or even merely how she sees them (but not they her). I got the impression she was having sex with all of them, and was married to at least one, maybe two, but not necessarily all three.
Also, to go back to Leigh’s original point, there’s no indication that even if Myrelle is married to all of them, Avar, Croi, and Nuhel are having sex with each other as well. Then again Ebou Dari marriage customs are not Aiel customs so that doesn’t tell us much.
@12 AeronaGreenjoy: The original WOTFAQ notes that Min is “almost Nynaeve’s age” and Nynaeve is 26. So Siuan and Leane would now look somewhere around 30. Interestingly this means they now look the age they were when they were raised Amyrlin and Keeper.
@15 ingunn_d: Well, Teslyn voted to depose her too, and both the other Red Sitters (Duhara and Javindhra) turned out to be Black, so even if both Teslyn and Pevara had abstained, there still would have been three Red votes for Elaida (since she voted for herself). I do believe, if it helps, that Pevara was mortified once she realized the truth, and that as much as anything galvanized her in her actions from KOD onward.
@18 JonathanLevy: Agreed re: sister-wives, but while it’s true the woman “not interested in the man” would be forced to go along with the marriage (and sex) if her first-sister wanted it and the man proposed to them both, that still doesn’t explain what would happen between her and her first-sister after marriage. But since most first-sisters don’t indulge in sexual relations with one another (Elayne and Aviendha certainly didn’t, and I don’t think that’s just because of being from different cultures), I would imagine that while the other woman would have to be part of sexual relations with their husband, she wouldn’t have to do the same with her first-sister unless she had already been doing so, and so wanted it to continue. (This also brings up the point of what happens when a man proposes to two unrelated women–for example, I believe Lian and Amys are not first-sisters. Lian is Aviendha’s maternal aunt, but Amys is only related to her through marriage to Rhuarc and Lian. Presumably if the women are not related, this makes it more likely, or at least more possible, that they might also be involved sexually with each other and not just their husband.)
Also re: Moghedien–whoa. That makes a scary amount of sense in retrospect, considering a lot of the subversive stuff she did behind the scenes as a spy for the Shadow could be considered jihadist. Heck, just the way she got away from the Light (and Birgitte) after being outed by causing a bomb explosion on an Age of Legends lightrail…
@20 Aqli: Um…no. I mean you’re right, that’s what the ceremony between Aviendha and Elayne entailed, and it means they would never indulge in sex because it would be seen as incest (though see GaidinBDJ’s points below), but it’s *not* a prerequisite to marrying the same husband. The reason Aviendha and Elayne underwent the ceremony was because they loved each other enough to see each other as sisters, and so they wanted the ceremony to make it official. It had nothing to do with them both loving Rand. See my response above to JonathanLevy re: Lian and Amys being sister-wives, but not first-sisters.
@21 ValMar, 22 JonathanLevy: So that’s what Gaul’s dilemma was. I think I missed that nuance before. Damn. It does suck to be him, doesn’t it? At the same time, if Gaul wanted both of them, it would suck to be Bain since she’d be forced into it at that point. Though I think Gaidin at 24 has a good point re: Bain’s willingness to have sex with Gaul; the real issues are whether Gaul wants her too and not just Chiad, and whether the Maidens will give up their spears for him.
@23 ValMar: You’re right, it’s not the case for Lian and Amys. See my thoughts above.
@24 GaidinBDJ: I forgot about Melaine, Bael, and Dorindha. Another very good example, and it even provides (as you point out) the possibility that adopted first-sisters rather than actual ones could conceivably still have sexual relations if they wished–so Lian and Amys very well might. In which case what stops Elayne and Aviendha is the lack of interest in each other that way. And, probably, Elayne’s feelings on the matter due to her culture.
macster @27. I do not believe Javindhra was a member of the Black Ajah, The Companion does not say she was Black Sister. She had reservations about bonding Ash’amanm but she was not Black. She was Turned, however.
Who were the 3 Red Sisters when the Hall voted to depose Siuan? The WoT Companion states that Pevera, Javindrha, and Duhara each stood to depose Siuan. Teslyn is also listed as a Sitter.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@@@@@ AndrewHB: Oh, you’re right, it didn’t say she was…I guess I took Leigh’s commentary on the way Javindhra was acting when she was sent to the Black Tower to be a sign she was secretly Black (rather than glad to spoke Elaida’s wheel).
As for the rest…hmmm, that is odd. The Companion says Teslyn was unchaired when Elaida sent her to Ebou Dar and Duhara replaced her, but it also says Teslyn supported Elaida while Duhara stood to depose Siuan, which isn’t possible if they weren’t Sitters at the same time. (Duhara had been a Sitter before, then stepped down/was voted out to become Keeper to Sierin Vayu some years later, but Javindhra and Teslyn were raised at the same time, to replace the Sitters removed after the Vileness.) I can only assume it’s an error (Team Jordan did say there were some in the Companion which they preserved to show how Jordan had changed his mind sometimes), and what actually happened was Pevara, Javindhra, and Teslyn stood to depose Siuan and raise Elaida, and then Duhara replaced Teslyn so never got to vote for her. In which case Pevara’s vote was pretty damning, but then so were both Javindhra and Teslyn’s, so they’re all equally culpable.
The WOT Encyclopedia says that Jordan had said (in a Tor Question of the Week) that Elaida briefly became a Red Sitter in order to depose Siuan and become Amyrlin, but that doesn’t gel with what the Companion says, plus it would require one of the Reds to have either not been available when the Hall voted or to have actually not supported Elaida so that Galina had to replace her with Elaida. (Either Javindhra or Teslyn, it seems.) So I’m not sure what that says about who voted against Siuan and for Elaida vs. what the Companion said.
Wasn’t the hinkiness with with Sitters one of the reasons they saw Suian being deposed and Eladia being raised as illegitmate. I know that they called the vote to depose with the bare minimum number of Sitters, but they obviously believe that following the letter of the law produces legitmate results since they rely on that to raise Egwne. Several Oath-bound Aes Sedai say outright that Eladia is an illegimate Amrylin and that Egwene is the one true Amyrlin. There must have been some violation of Tower law (not just politicking they disagreed with) in order for them to be able to say it; otherwise, they’d be stuck admitting that Eladia is the Amyrlin and that they just oppose her principles/actions.
As soon as I realized Gawyn killed Hammer, as well as others under whom he had tutelage, he was on my shit list. I always thought Egwene was nuts to have anything to do with him, the selfish, ungrateful little prick. I was rather surprised he ended up being the darker of the two brothers, thinking Galad was the clueless wonder who seemed to always think he was for justice no matter what the end means would be. Galad at least had patience whereas Gawyn had none. It was if Gawyn reacted from pure emotion instead of thinking things through to the most probable outcome. Even Min could see Gawyn was conflicted when she saw him either “kneeling before Egwene or breaking her neck”. Not exactly my idea of gallant and dashing suitor.
AndrewHB @28, macster @29: I just reached this point in my re-read, and in the coup chapter, it is explicitly stated that Elaida was a Sitter when Siuan announced the Rand had taken Callandor. (Specifically, she was one of the three Sitters who proposed Sealing everything to the Hall.) The conversation they have while Siuan is being arrested really only makes sense if Elaida is still a Sitter at that point (IMO; it’s definitely not explicit). However, according to Steven Cooper’s WoT timeline, the time between Siuan announcing Rand to the Hall and the coup is roughly 16 days; it seems highly unlikely that Elaida’s reaction to the announcement is to resign as a Sitter in order to organize the coup.
As I continue on, I’ll be watching for other clues as to what happened (per the books).
The Red Sitters likely just voted out of Ajah loyalty. Red Amyrlins tend to be few and far in between. Mostly because they tend to be utter bitches who end up getting deposed. They saw their chance to raise their own this time and took it with both hands. The rest were either Black Ajah or somehow convinced by Alviarin.
I suspect they never expected the schism to spiral out of control the way it did. By the time Tsutama takes over she’s practically in damage control mode.
Gawyn would probably never have admitted he was wrong to stand for Elaida because that would have made him rethink everything he did in the Tower coup, including killing his warder instructor. It’s not easy to admit you’re wrong, especially if you have a shit-ton of really bad things that you’ve been making excuses for that will come out with that realization. In fact, I think he used his love for Egwene as a reason as to why it was now ok for him to be against Elaida. He just did not like admitting he picked the losing side.